In this episode, I am speaking with Dave Asprey (best-known for Bullet-proof Coffee) about using biohacking for improving your body and mind.
Table of Contents
In this podcast, Dave and I discuss:
- What exactly is the Biohacking Movement, what inspired it, and who might benefit from it
- What age Dave thinks you could live to if you cracked biohacking (and how he comes out at that number)
- Resolving the ongoing vegan/vegetarianism vs omnivorism vs. /carnivorism debate.
- The benefits of world-famous Bullet-proof Coffee – fact or fiction? (And his new coffee that may be even better!)
- Why paying attention to the issue of mold in coffee may matter way more than you think!
- The best tools to track your health data
- The top 3 biohacking tips to start your own boihacking journey
Listen or download on iTunes
Listen outside iTunes
Transcript
Ari: Welcome, Dave. Such a pleasure to have you on.
Dave: I’m really happy.
Ari: Cool. First of all, my audience may not be totally familiar with your world. I know that in my member’s Facebook group, the topic of biohacking has come up here and there and sometimes I get these reactions from, especially people who are a bit older, maybe they’re in their 50s, their 60s, 70s, and they hear this word biohacking and they go, “Oh my God, that sounds awful. What is this horrible thing? Is this turning me into a cyborg or something?” First of all, I’m sure you’ve answered this question a million times before but what is biohacking? Why do you put such a big focus on it?
Ari: Welcome, Dave. Such a pleasure to have you on.
Dave: I’m really happy.
Ari: Cool. First of all, my audience may not be totally familiar with your world. I know that in my member’s Facebook group, the topic of biohacking has come up here and there and sometimes I get these reactions from, especially people who are a bit older, maybe they’re in their 50s, their 60s, 70s, and they hear this word biohacking and they go, “Oh my God, that sounds awful. What is this horrible thing? Is this turning me into a cyborg or something?” First of all, I’m sure you’ve answered this question a million times before but what is biohacking? Why do you put such a big focus on it?
What is biohacking
You’re pretty much the pioneer of this. You’re also a big proponent of being able to control what goes in or what does not go in your body. Talk to me about that, tell everybody what biohacking is.
Dave: Sure. Biohacking is a movement that I started actually 12 years ago now in 2010. It became a new word in the English language in 2018 in Merriam Webster’s dictionary. My name is actually in there, which is pretty cool. The original definition was the art and science of changing the environment around you and inside of you, so you have full control of your own biology. Just full disclosure, I spent almost 20 years running an anti-aging nonprofit research group in Silicon Valley. Many of the biohacking techniques come straight out of 80-year-olds feeling like they’re 50.
It turns out, if you do those when you’re 30, you outperform all of your friends because they actually make you have more energy. The whole basis of biohacking was born in part from anti-aging. The thing that made me mad was I could never get the anti-aging friends I had, some of them were three times my age teaching me their secrets. How do we get them to talk to the neuroscientists and to talk to the bodybuilders and the hormone experts and the Navy Seals and the astronauts and Olympic athletes?
These are the areas where we’re pushing the very edges of human biology what we can do. You’ll notice none of those was how do I replace my eyes with laser rangefinders and get rockets for arms and whatever else? I draw a line between grinders, which is a word for people who are doing Do It Yourself implants, and body modification stuff. I support your right and your freedom to do anything you want. In fact, a very good skin cancer reduction strategy is to cut off your arms and legs, so you have less skin so you get less skin cancer.
I think you’d be very bad at science if you did that, but hey, it’s your right to be stupid. That’s one of the most fundamental things that government does is it protects your ability to make decisions that everyone else thinks are crazy because if you don’t have that right, you stop innovation right there. When I told people I’m going to live to at least 180, assuming a truck doesn’t hit me or something, here’s why I think it’s possible, here’s a New York Times bestselling book with references and all the seven things we know you have to maintain.
Well, in order to do something like that, you have to have the right to say that you can do that and the right to talk about it. Right now, I’m pretty high on the free speech horse because we’re having unprecedented censorship about how to take care of our own biology. I used to weigh 300 pounds. I had all the diseases of aging before I was 30, the cognitive dysfunction, arthritis, high risk of stroke and heart attack, pre-diabetes, fibromyalgia. I’ve come back from all that and I’m better now. When I’m 28% of my forecasted minimum lifespan than I was when I was a lot younger.
Ari: You mentioned this 180 mark, you want to live to be 180.
Dave: At least. People always want to give me a ceiling, it’s a floor. [laughs]
Ari: Why 180? Why not 730 or 130? What’s the rationale?
Dave: I don’t want people to think I’m crazy so I just picked a low number. [laughs] Here’s why. Today, our current best is about 120. It’s slightly over 120. These are people who were born before World War I. We fought World War I, a lot of it on horseback. We had our first biplanes that we used in World War I, just a few of them. [chuckles] We didn’t have antibiotics. We couldn’t spell DNA because we didn’t know what it was. The world was incredibly different. We didn’t have microwave ovens. We didn’t have cell phones.
We didn’t have PubMed, which is an online site where you can look at the sum of human medical knowledge for free. Wow. If they can do 120, don’t you think that you and I might be able to do just 50% better in the next 100 years with artificial intelligence and machine learning and all this stuff? My biggest concerns are frankly, environmental. Will we run out of topsoil, which happens in about 60 years, and that is a big carbon sink and that’s what we eat? Will we run out of water? Those are the two things.
Will we spray glyphosate and other things, or just make large-scale population decisions that are not in our best interest long term, that look good short term, and cause problems? This comes down to how do we keep our petri dish clean?
Ari: Within the natural health movement, which I would say I’m definitely a part of, I don’t know what you perceive of yourself, but you’re part of it, but also, in a way, not because the biohacking thing is so much about innovation, technological innovation, and things like that. What would you say, do you identify as being part of the natural health movement?
Dave: I’m one of the biggest influencers in it, I would say. If you go to Whole Foods and you look for grass-fed anything, I’m going to raise my hand and say I was probably the loudest voice making that happen, with my writing four New York Times bestsellers, and just constantly beating the bush. I live in an organic permaculture farm with 25 pigs, 25 sheep, three cows, and a bunch of chickens, and we actually feed our local community. I’m very much a part of it because it turns out biohacking is like, “Look, stop doing the things that make you weak and do more of what makes you strong.”
I’ve taught 70,000 people how to do intermittent fasting because that was the topic of my last book, it’s fastwithdave.com. I’ll just teach you how to do it for free because this is something everyone should know. If I’d have known it when I weighed 300 pounds, I wouldn’t have weighed 300 pounds, and you don’t have to suffer. Sleep hygiene, one of the first guys out there saying, “Hey, the color of the light really matters.” That was me. These are all-natural health ideas.
What we had in natural health was, I’m going to say some toxic beliefs, a plant-based diet is somehow morally ethically or health-wise superior to a diet that includes animals. Those are false. What biohacking does is we say, “Let’s make a change. Let’s measure it.” When I say measure it, I’m wearing an Oura ring right now. I’m an investor/advisor to the company, but I was also the CTO and co-founder of the first company to get heart rate from your wrist 10 years ago, before I started Bulletproof and all the other companies I’ve started.
I’m all about, “Hey, if it works, prove it to me.” What we’re finding is almost everything that big food wants you to do, more vegetable oil, more seed oil, more grains, all of those things create human weakness. Now, does that mean I’m part of natural health? No, I am part of what works health, I will measure it, and just turns out natural health works a lot better most of the time. We also do stuff like eat kale and think it’s healthy. Kale is a garnish. It’s not a food. Once we get that down, we’ll all be healthier. Stuff like that matters, but you can measure it.
Ari: Excellent. That was an excellent explanation of where I wanted to go, but maybe we can elaborate just a bit more.
Dave: Sure.
Modern or ancestral lifestyle, which one is best?
Ari: On the one hand, I think there’s a lot of people who are fascinated with technology and who are of the opinion that it’s all about living better with technology. That’s the answer, more science, more drugs, more vaccines, more of everything that is coming out of technology, and medicine is the answer to better health. That’s one solid camp that’s out there. Then on the other end, you have people, hardcore natural health proponents who are in a way trying to get back to living like our hunter-gatherer ancestors.
You’re very much walking this middle ground with, as you implied there, almost no allegiance to either camp, but really just this commitment to doing whatever works. How do you perceive yourself as walking between those two camps?
Dave: Well, if you put yourself in a camp, you stopped thinking. This is true politically, it’s true from being a patriot or whatever your country is. Your country probably did some really bad things and is probably doing them right now and that’s okay. Countries do that. You might as well be aware of it instead of putting on blinders. That’s what camps do. They’re for intellectually lazy people, to say, “I’m just going to follow this basic set of rules, even if they don’t work because I feel safer following this basic set of rules.”
If you’re too lazy to do that, don’t join a camp, find people who are really curious, who are doing the work of curating good knowledge for you and then follow them and let them do some of the thinking for you, but don’t be in just one camp. One of the camps I used to be in when I was younger when I was really working on losing this weight, I joined the raw vegan camp. Oh, I just said, well, enzymes. [chuckles] I gave myself autoimmune diseases and I screwed up my health. I ended up having to create another diet to fix it.
I was in the all carbs are bad Atkin’s diet camp in the ’90s. I lost 50 pounds in three months. It took me 10 years to lose the other 50 pounds because it turns out it’s not just about carbs being bad. In fact, carbs aren’t bad. If you don’t have them, you will very much hate your life and probably be unable to get an erection. If you’re in keto for long periods of time. No, that’s not true for everyone, just most people. There are ways to do it but it’s about measuring and improving. That means you must be willing to consider stuff.
I did all the pharmaceutical stuff. I was not just fat. I’d had three knee surgeries before I was 23, chronic sinusitis for 15 years, I was on antibiotics almost every month because of these problems. Miserable, toxic mold was a major trigger. It turns out behind all that but no one knew at the time. It’s just one of those things. You walk around feeling like crap all the time.
When I exhausted all the stuff that was supposed to work, I’m a computer science guy. I’m in Silicon Valley. I’m at the company that held Google’s first servers when Google was just two employees and two servers and had this amazing career going on. Meanwhile, my brain is like leaving my body and I don’t really know what’s going on. I’m at this fascinating time where I really want to accelerate my career.
My accelerator pressed all the way to the floor and I’m slowing down and I’m slowing down. Of course, you do all the stuff you’re supposed to do. That’s Western med. When I went to the doctor, the Palo Alto medical foundation and said, “I feel like I’ve been poisoned but I noticed if I take vitamin C, I feel a little bit better but something’s wrong. Can you help me find it?” He said, “Vitamin C, you have to stop. It could kill you.” I looked at him and I said, “What about Linus Polling?” Now Linus Polling won two Nobel prizes and was the largest proponent of vitamin C. He took 90 grams a day, which is probably excessive but he’s an example that vitamin C probably won’t kill you. He lived till his mid-80s.
The doctor didn’t know who he was. I fired the doctor. I said, I’m done with Western medicine entirely. For four years, I didn’t see a doctor until I went back to one and said, “You’re just a walking permission slip,” was actually what I said. I just need you to order labs. To her credit, she said, “Okay, Dave, [laughs] you’ve clearly done your research. Can I at least order the lab tests you want to get like what order should we do them in?” It turns out not just mold. I had lime as well and toxic metals. I pretty much had all the bad stuff. Moral of the story. Should you say all pharmaceuticals are bad because I was in that camp. It’s absolutely stupid to do that. Aspirin is pretty darn useful. You say, well, it’s a white willow bark extract from trees really.
I’m going to count that as natural. All right, let’s up it a little bit. I took Modafinil. This is the limitless drug. The most studied most effective broad-spectrum, smart drug you can get as a prescription. It got me through Wharton business school while I was working full-time. When I was dealing with really serious brain fog from my health. I took it every day for eight years and it totally improved everything about my life. It does not have substantial side effects. Am I grateful for that pharmaceutical? Yes, have I used antibiotics? That’s so weird. I have because I have really bad infection. Western medication is really good for you. The ones you take all the time, you know what? I’m going to tell you. A lot of people listening here will live another 10 years longer if you use some pharmaceuticals.
They’re actually that useful. Some that you use chronically, like some antihistamines can be really powerful for aging. Some immunosuppressants can be powerful for aging taken once a week. Just don’t be dogmatic. Look, is the juice worth the squeeze? There’s a risk and there’s a reward and your risk and your reward will be different than mine because you might be a different gender. You might be a different age.
You might have different genetic characteristics but if you don’t know what your risks are and you don’t know what the risks of a medication are either because it’s been hidden. Maybe you’ll hear about it 75 years from now. How can you make an intelligent decision? What you’re supposed to do is go to your doctor or your health provider or your naturopath or whoever you consult with and say, you know what, “Here’s what I’m interested in achieving for my health and my performance.
Here’s the things I’m concerned about given my genetics and my family history, given the fact that I smoke three packs a day,” whatever it is. Given that, what’s the best course of action. Then you choose for you. What governments and epidemiologists do is they say, “Oh, everyone’s average.” Therefore we’re going to make everyone do the same thing. Here’s what that does. Let’s look at a class. You have some A students, you make them do the average thing, they become C students but the F students become C students.
Anytime an epidemiologist or government says everyone has to do this, they’re always taking the outlying high performers and screwing them over. Those are the people like Einstein who are out there. They’re way orders of magnitude floating around out there. They’re just different. Right now they’re actually trying to put digital systems in place to enforce behaviors that might not work for some people, especially people with mast cell activation problems.
Mast cells are cells in your body. Part of your immune system. They’re like little landmines waiting to get set off. You get stung by a bee and you puff up, that’s mast cells but it’s a major part of inflammaging. This is why you should work with your doctor and your doctors have the right to say any pharmaceutical on the planet might be a good choice or might not be a good choice for you without interference from insurance companies or bureaucrats.
That’s why I’ve been very vocal on my social channels saying, look, biological freedom is fundamentally important for you to live a long time and for you to feel good. What if they mandated antidepressants for everyone? Do you want to be forced to take that? I don’t. I don’t think that anyone has that right.
Ari: Very well said. I agree with everything you said–
Dave: Notice I didn’t say the V-word there.
Ari: Well done. Well done on that. [laughs]
Dave: We won’t get sensors.
Ari: I like the 75 years remark too. I think probably a lot of people won’t catch the reference there. I want to talk about diet.
Dave: All right.
Nutrition for biohacking
Ari: You’ve alluded to this a couple of times but maybe let’s start with the extreme. Are you in the vegan camp or are you in the carnivore camp and if not, why are you not in either of those camps?
Dave: I am in what we’ll call the Bulletproof Diet camp. I think we’re at about 600,000 copies of the book and 16,000 languages. People lost more than a million pounds on the diet and it’s the one that’s kept me from being hungry for a long time. Yes, I was a card-carrying devout raw vegan than a regular vegan until it made me really ill. It’s made so many people sick to go plant-based. A lot of them I have worked with, in fact, just at new year’s, I sat with a vegan, a very, very strident vegan when she had her first piece of bacon in 30 years. It comes down to the three beliefs. I’m going to do the vegan takedown, then I’ll do the carnivore takedown.
Ari: Please.
Dave: Although if I had to choose between the two, I’d go carnivore but it’s not going to end well, either on that. What happens with the vegan diet is animal rights, terror groups who believe actually in writing that a human life is equivalent to a bunny life, that we’re the same. They will lie to you and tell you that a vegan diet is good for your health. They don’t care about your health. All the anti-aging physicians, the thousands of them I’ve worked with. I lecture at the American Academy of Anti-aging Medicine to these doctors. Many of them are close friends. I’ve interviewed almost a thousand people like that on my show.
99 point something percent of them will tell you that vegans are the most unhealthy group they come across. Personal trainers will tell you it’s easy, take a vegan, have them hang from a bar. Someone can walk in the door and a vegan will fall off the bar first. They can’t hold on, followed by someone who eats KFC and this standard American diet followed by someone who’s on a healthier diet, which is going to be something that is probably more paleo-ish, Bulletproof, and maybe the early stages of carnivore but not the late stages.
What you end up with is just, it creates human weakness. That’s the reality. I don’t like it if that’s the reality. You hear people say it’s better for the environment, that is false. You need animal poop to make soil. I say this as a regenerative agriculture farmer living about 200 feet right now from my sheep. Where the animals poop, the stuff grows, where the animals don’t poop we have depleted soils, which are a major problem. Plant-based diets don’t work for that, yet industrial meat is bad for you. Distributed grass-fed is the only way we can really make the planet go.
There’s not an environmental argument. There’s not a health argument. There’s the animal cruelty argument. From an animal cruelty perspective when I was in Tibet and yes, I’ve traveled the world because when I realized, “Oh, this Western stuff isn’t working I’ll try ayahuasca in South America.” This is back when no white people did that. Literally, they said, you’re white. You won’t like it. I know I’m white but I really want to try this. Now, it’s a tourist industry in Peru.
Then I went to Nepal and Tibet and I study meditation with the masters there. I was talking with the head Lama at one of the large monasteries in Tibet. I said, “You tell me no killing and I see a yak skin on your prayer pole. You’re a hypocrite.” He starts laughing at me and he goes, “Dave, one death feeds everyone.” I have calculated the deaths per calorie for the Bulletproof Diet, which is based on only eating grass-fed on wildcard stuff, or you just eat vegetables and things you just don’t eat, industrial meat. You can eat a pound of meat every year and kill 0.5 animals per year, including all of the byproduct animals. Unless the cow stepped on a frog, nothing else died and the cow led a great life.
Ari: That was a pound of meat every day for a year.
Dave: Yes, because a cow weighs 1,000 pounds, right? Of course, there’s butcher weight in bones and you can do all sorts of calculations, what breed of cow, whatever, but it’s about between 0.3 and 0.5 deaths [chuckles] for the entire year. A bowl of impossible soy nuggets, how much habitat destruction happened because the cow was on a field that you didn’t have to destroy. There’s actually an ecosystem there.
There’s mice and there’s other stuff, there’s bugs, there are not those where they grow soy, it’s literally just dead soil and what happens there is habitat destruction and if there are animals, once you run that tractor through and cut everything down, there’s no animals except pieces of them so all the bunnies, turtles, so wait a minute, you mean my bowl of cereal killed more animals, destroyed my environment, depleted more soil than the steak? That’s the reality.
Then people say, “But I have plant-based protein.” Plant-based protein always comes with things that keep plants from being food unless you’re an herbivore with three stomachs for that, and mostly phytic acid, so you can’t absorb the minerals. They deplete your minerals and you end up with low bone density. I just had surgery on my foot and the doctor was saying, “This is weird. My bones are slowing down on his bones. I’ve never seen bone density like this.” That’s because I get enough minerals from my food.
Ari: Okay, so is this because you installed some steel rods in there in your biohacking efforts or some adamantium?
Dave: I have laser toes now, it’s awesome. It’s an old yoga injury actually, but that’s our vegan side of things. It simply doesn’t work for the planet and it doesn’t work for the animals, yet industrial meat is bad. So don’t eat industrial meat, but you can support a local farmer. Now, let’s get into the carnivore thing. When I stress tested the Bulletproof Diet. The Bulletproof Diet is to be as simple as I can make it. Here’s the list of veggies that will not inflame your body. It’s a shortlist.
You go in ketosis for brief periods of time, and you practice intermittent fasting. This is a diet that’s now 12 years old. [chuckles] It works so well. Which means instead of breakfast you have butter, MCT oil, and coffee. This is well-known as Bulletproof coffee. I’m the founder of Bulletproof. We’ve done half a billion dollars in sales or something like that over the life of the company.
Bulletproof coffee and more
Ari: By the way, I’ll mention briefly on that. I’m down here in Costa Rica, I don’t know if you know that. I’m in a small town called Nosara. At my favorite restaurant down here, they actually offer Bulletproof coffee. They offer, in fact, two varieties of it.
Dave: Wow.
Ari: A Canadian version with some kind of I think they call it Makanto maple-flavored monk fruit sweetener, something like that. It doesn’t taste as good as the original, but anyway, just a test of your success that you’ve reached far all over the world with bulletproof coffee.
Dave: It’s become a kind of almost hard to believe I’ve seen signs of small villages in India with a sign that says Bulletproof coffee. Clearly, it’s not the actual Bulletproof brand but the idea of putting butter and MCT oil or grass-fed butter to be clear because regular butter doesn’t work. If doing that and blending it putting your coffee, it’s hard to know how many people have done that but it’s done at least a billion times. It’s changed a lot of people’s brains. It works exceptionally well.
I’m really grateful for that. Now there’s all kinds of companies selling collagen and MCT oil because finding clean coffee is really tough. In fact, I am not working with Bulletproof at all. Right now I’m still a shareholder, but I am not on the board. I’m not involved with them. As part of my new Upgrade Labs venture, which is a facility that lets you get more exercise and more recovery in way less time than going to the gym, actually, that company will be selling my new brand of coffee which is of course mold free but has some other characteristics that no coffee has had to date. I’m pretty excited to launch that.
Ari: Well, can you talk about what those characteristics are?
Dave: When are we going to put this podcast off?
Ari: It’s top secret. I can postpone it a few weeks if you want. I can postpone it for maybe six weeks at the most.
Dave: I wonder. Yes. I think I can talk about it just you got to check with me before you publicize it if that works just so we can do it. Where am I going to send people? Let’s see here. Okay, well, the URL for the new coffee right now is mymysterycoffee.com. Let me just double-check that. Yes, there you go. If you go to mymysterycoffee.com that’s where the list is to get the new coffee. What I’ve done is I’ve, of course, made sure that it’s mold-free. Just a word about mold in coffee. People say, “What mold? I don’t see any mold in my coffee?”
The way coffee works is that when it’s on the plant growing, insects bite the coffee, and they put little spores of molds that make toxins that are bad for people. It’s not that the mold is present is that the poison is present. When you take penicillin, you’re not taking a fungus or you’re not taking a mold, you’re actually taking an extract of a mold. What ends up in your coffee is something called ochratoxin A. Those little fertilized or inoculated beans in a normal coffee plant, they’ll sit there for two or three days in river water kind of spoiling and fermenting and growing bad stuff, then they dry them in the sun. Then they dry them in a dryer and they ship them to you but the toxins are already present and the toxins are stable on heat.
You could say that sounds like a bunch of hippy BS, to be perfectly honest, but most countries on the planet have government limits for the amount of this toxin that you let into coffee because it’s so bad for your bladder and kidneys. In my experience, it gives people anxiety, jitters, and sugar cravings after they have coffee.
The US and Canada have no standards at all. I have on video a former president of the Specialty Coffee Association talking about the time he was in Japan and Japan rejected 1,000 shipping containers of coffee because they did not meet the mold toxin standards. I said, “What did you do with this?” He said, “We send them to the US because it’s legal there.” If you feel crappy after a certain cup of coffee, you either feel up and then down, or you get really strong sugar cravings after it, it’s not the coffee, it’s what the coffee has in it because it was processed wrong.
The new coffee that I’m coming out with, that mymysterycoffee.com, it is one that has very, very clean steps made during manufacturing. Of course, it’s lab-tested but it also has some minerals more than 50 different kinds of minerals added back in. I mentioned earlier that people are mineral deficient right now. What if with every cup of coffee, you got minerals that your body could actually absorb? We’ve filed for patents on ways of combining the minerals with the coffee in such a way that they can be absorbed well into your cells.
Now you’re getting way more minerals than you were before and the coffee tastes amazing. Those minerals also stick to other toxins in your body to help them get out of the body. It’s basically the ultimate high-performance coffee. I’m pretty excited to be doing this.
Ari: Awesome. It was mymysterycoffee.com
Dave: Yes.
Vegans vs. carnivore
Ari: Okay. We digressed down this. We were talking vegans versus carnivore.
Dave: Yes, carnivore. On the Bulletproof thing, you do that in the morning. Carnivore people will oftentimes tell you that any plant is bad for you. I’m stress testing the Bulletproof Diet and so I went carnivore-ish. I did have a few herbs, but I ate only meat and fat, and eggs for three months. During the first six weeks I’m like, “Yes, I feel so good.” I was also doing extra calories during that time just to show that, “Okay, I’m not going to get fat from eating extra calories.” I did not gain weight on it, I lost weight on it. The problem was by the end of three months, my sleep score went way down. I’ve been monitoring my sleep every night for 15 years and all of a sudden, I’d wake up after nine hours of sleep. I normally sleep six and a half hours, that’s all I need.
I’d wake up and I feel like I didn’t sleep. Then my technology would show me that I was waking up a dozen times at night and not knowing it. Then I noticed the other things that always happen when people go carnivore. [chuckles] They feel great for a while. I call this the carnivore trap. It’s the same as the fasting trap, the Keto trap, or the vegan trap. It said if something is good, more must be better but women hit the carnivore trap before men do. I have a bunch of friends who went carnivore and like, “Guys, have you tried this? Here’s what’s going to happen.”
Animal protein in particular animal fat from grass-fed animals are really good for you. That’s not to say that you don’t need some ability to feed the good bacteria in your gut because they get stressed. They make something called lipopolysaccharides. What you do is you can go full carnivore for three or four or five or seven days, but then you have a meal that includes some soluble fiber also known as prebiotic fiber, or you could be carnivore and take some of that every day. The reason that we’re all confused about this is that the body actually is meant to run on glucose much of the time, and it can run on ketones some of the time.
You can teach it to run on ketones. You do that by intermittent fasting, or by being carnivore for at least three days, or you could teach it that by adding MCT oil to your coffee, it’s less work. MCT oil has other benefits. When you do that, now you have a metabolism that can burn fat or can burn carbohydrates for energy. When you go full carnivore, you lose the ability to metabolize carbohydrates for energy, and your gut bacteria moving away, that isn’t good. In the carnivore space, one of my friends, Paul Saladino has ended up, “Guys, I actually feel better if I have some honey,” which is animal-based along with it, “and I eat the less inflammatory plants.”
I’m like, “Yes, that’s exactly what I’m recommending on the Bulletproof Diet with intermittent fasting.” In the morning, don’t have much. Eat most of your food in the middle of the day, have some carbs if you’re not trying to lose weight. If you’re trying to lose weight, cut the carbs a little bit and be in ketosis some of the time. That will keep you going for decades. I’m also a fan of adding prebiotic fiber that in studies feeds good gut bacteria. You can add that to your coffee, you can have it somewhere in your diet. You look at the ancestral diets, they would chew on fibrous stuff to get the soluble fiber.
It’s mostly plants saps. Some of that is good for you, but most plants, they just want to kill you. This idea that you’re going to eat a big kale salad and feel good? No, no one feels good after a kale salad. They didn’t even want to eat it unless it has bacon and maple syrup on it. Even then, you’re going to be hungry and you’ll get kidney stones later. It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of from a guy who’s blended at least 100 pounds of kale and gave myself oxalic acid poisoning.
Biotracking yay or nay?
Ari: Within the biohacking community, or the biohacking niche, let’s say, it seems like there is a new device, some kind of new wearable technology on the market every week. I’ve been watching this unfold for 10 years now, and I chuckle. To some extent I’m thinking, what does it look like if someone buys every one of these devices that comes out on the market?
Every time they leave the house, they’re going to have 30 different wearable devices on them. At a certain point, it’s becoming like a cyborg, except it’s much more cumbersome. Then you got to check your 30 different apps to get all the data. Given that whole space has expanded so much and you’ve been in it from the very beginning, what do you say are the top wearable biohacking devices on the market right now?
Dave: I’m going to turn your question around a little bit and say, “Track what you hack.” At the very beginning of this movement, there’s a group called Quantified Self. As an early member of the group, and was, “How are we going to get the data from the human body? No one’s ever done this.” My background is getting data from data centers and working in Silicon Valley. I’m all about that. My whole career has been in performance enhancement and systems management for tech, and so what if I turn this around to myself?
If you’re looking at growing muscle, then you would look at tech that monitors the things that help you grow muscle. If you’re looking at getting a better night’s sleep, then you would look at a sleep tracker. If you’re looking at fixing your posture, there are things that will remind you every time you hunch over so that you sit up straighter, so you get one of those. It is a fool’s errand to buy 30 different things and stick them all over your body because you actually can’t concentrate on that many things. Then what you end up with is a very rich data set, but it’s too rich for you to take action on, so then you need machine learning.
That’s where we’re going, where you’ll have enough effortless monitoring that, “Now I just get really good recommendations from an algorithm, and hopefully it’s an algorithm that’s transparent. I don’t want Facebook running that algorithm because they don’t care about my health, they’ll probably steer me to drive myself into a wall because they would make more money.” You don’t want that behind your machine learning. All of that said, the number one thing that has the most return on investment for people in terms of data is a sleep tracker.
My favorite one is the Oura ring, O-U-R-A. As I mentioned, just full disclosure, I’m a small investor, I’m an adviser to the company, but I was also a co-founder and CTO of another company that did that, that we sold to Intel 10 years ago or something. I know the space really well. The reason I like this ring is you charge it maybe once a week, and it’s seamless, and it’s not in the way. You don’t have a big blinky watch. It doesn’t do anything unless you look at your phone in the morning, and then you know, did I do a good job sleeping last night? Most importantly, that’s so weird, I slept eight hours like I normally do but I really got terrible sleep.
You realize it’s not about the length of your sleep, it’s about the quality of your sleep. When you fix the quality of your sleep, your cognitive performance goes up, your physical performance goes up, your blood sugar regulation goes up, your risk of diabetes goes down, your risk of cancer goes down, and everything gets better. Sleep is a highly leveraged thing. You can get sleep trackers that start under $100 bucks. If you want the very cheapest, but still effective, there’s a company called SleepSpace, which is backed by a university researcher named Dan Gartenberg. I’m also an investor advisor in those guys.
Your phone all by itself can not only track your sleep with accuracy, it can enhance your deep sleep and your REM sleep, that one’s called SleepSpace.Those are two things. You carry a huge biohacking device in your hand. Your phone can do crazy amounts of cognitive training, all kinds of feedback, even some now based on how your eyes move. Just don’t worry about getting all the data. Don’t worry about being perfect. Say, “What do I care about? What’s one thing I can track until I get it right?”
The story behind 10,000 steps a day
Also in that mentioned, number of steps per day is absolute BS. I’ve been saying this since I was at one of those early fitness tracker companies that was called Basis.
The 10,000 steps a day came from a company in Japan in 1956. They came out with the first little thing you clipped on your belt that track the number of steps, a pedometer. They just needed a marketing campaign. They made up 10,000 steps and said this is what the goal should be. To this day, you see billion-dollar tech companies say, “You need your 10,000 steps a day.” It’s garbage. People who walk 10,000 steps a day, they just wear their joints out, and then they eat more to compensate for the extra energy demand. It’s not based on science. You’ll be happier with 6,000 if you’re an average person.
The importance of critical thinking
Ari: We could go on a whole digression about how much of things that are purported to be scientific consensus are just made up by some person at some point. For example, right now, the whole space six feet apart, social distancing stuff. It didn’t exactly come from randomized controlled studies where they tested the transmission of COVID at different distances. Somebody just made it up.
Dave: It’s complete garbage thinking. Anyone, like teenagers figure this out right away. The problem when governments come out, or sometimes people with scientific robes of power come out with just completely obviously BS recommendations like that, it teaches teenagers and anyone who can think, “Never trust them again.” I talk to my kids, they’re outraged. “The school says I have to wear a mask here but not here, but we’re right next to each other here.” If they let us do this, then there’s no need. It doesn’t make sense. It makes people angry. Stupid recommendations just to say you’re meeting them, they actually are attacks on human consciousness.
I don’t think people are going to stand for much more of that. Over time, governments tend to grow the number of regulations until they basically clog the arteries of civilization. That’s happening with health regulations right now. Everything the government’s ever told you about what to eat has been proven wrong. There’s that. Why am I going to trust him with anything about my health? It’s not their job to keep me safe. It’s not their job to tell me what to eat. It’s their job to let me make my decisions and not harm others. That’s it.
The best bio hacks for combating fatigue
Ari: It seems they’re pretty confused about that right now. Given how long you’ve been not only part of the biohacking community but pioneering the biohacking space, after all these years, what would you say are your top biohacking strategies? Maybe your top three. I’m going to add the nuance here of if someone is struggling with energy levels, if they’re struggling with fatigue in particular, what would you say are your top three biohacks to experiment with?
Dave: The first one is one that I already mentioned. It’s fixing your sleep. I will tell you everything I know in the shortest possible time. Go to sleepwithdave.com. It is free. [chuckles] This is my sleep–
Ari: Is this only for women, Dave?
Dave: It’s for anyone. I’m very flexible though. That’s the best URL I could find. It’s also something you won’t forget. Sleep with Dave is hilarious, at least I think it is. What’s going on there is, you can change the environment that you sleep in, that very definition of biohacking. Oftentimes, it’s very, very cheap things. Most people don’t know if you raise the head of your bed by six inches so you’re at a slight angle that it totally changes the flow of fluids in your body at night so you can more effectively clean your brain with clean cerebrospinal fluid. That’s a one-time purchase of two bricks. We can all do this.
Ari: Was that elevating the head of the bed?
Dave: Just the head, yes.
Ari: Okay. I’ve seen some recommendations from some people lately. I know Michael Greger, and I think also Dr Huberman. I will say, I could be wrong about Huberman because I’m getting this through a third party, but someone asked me saying that Huberman actually elevated the foot of the bed, and I know Michael Greger is advising that. Huberman, based on what this person said, could be wrong, was saying that it would help lymphatic drainage from the brain, which doesn’t intuitively make, or logically make sense to me. What you’re saying makes sense because of gravity obviously helping fluid flow down out of the brain. Just curious if you’ve heard of that.
Dave: There are multiple studies. I’ve heard of it. There are multiple studies out of Germany that support raising the head of the bed, I don’t know of any studies that support the foot of the bed. You also look at the way our ancestors slept, and I do sleep on a very hard surface the way they did, which improves piazza electric signaling in the body. Actually, you feel much better. For the first six weeks you hate your life. After that, everything is much better. That probably improves lymphatic circulation as well. All humans would sleep with their head uphill, and [unintelligible 00:41:29] gone backpacking. It’s uncomfortable to sleep with your head downhill.
Also, all animals do that. Given what I know about animals, because my sheep are free range on my property, they walk everywhere, they will eat exactly one leaf of the herb that is anti-parasitic because that’s what they needed. They know if they eat 20 leaves, it’s going to be bad for them. We know intuitively how to best take care of our biology. There’s a reason that we want to sleep with our heads slightly elevated. Given the studies I’ve seen, and given that evidence, and just given what you see in the world around you, I would elevate the head of the bed.
There’s some interesting things about perhaps you ought to aim the head of your bed in alignment with one of the cardinal directions, and there’s debates about that. I don’t know about that. I don’t talk about that in the Sleep with Dave sleep challenge. What I do also talk about is blacking out the room. There’s a study that shows the amount of light that comes around normal curtains in the average city is enough to increase depression by 69%. This is a study of 800. This was a men-only study, but it’s likely true in women as well. It’s circadian disruption. One of my companies is around circadian biology, it’s called TrueDark.
We have patented or patent pending glasses that control way more than just blue light. Blacking out your room is dirt cheap. You just need good blackout curtains with velcro or magnets around the edges so no light gets in, and you tape over or unplug every LED of any color. When you do that, magically, you get more sleep per hour. I go through a long list of things like this. Yes, there’s cool sleep trackers you can embed into your mattress that change the temperature of your mattress, you can change your thermostat, you can control when you eat, all kinds of cool stuff. The dimming the lights before bed or wearing the TrueDark glasses, all those make a difference, but it’s all cheap.
That’s only one of them but man, if you fix your sleep, everything else is easier to do, including the next recommendation which is intermittent fasting. Would you imagine Fast with Dave, will take you to the fasting challenge? Again, this is free. It’s just a gift. I wrote a book on fasting called Fast This Way, in New York Times bestseller. There’s two kinds of fasting, both of them appear terrifying if you’ve never fasted before. One of them is a performance working fast, and one of them is a spiritual fast. When you do it right, you can fast and feel better during the day than you did when you had breakfast.
You’re not distracted by food, you have more energy, more focus, more time because you didn’t have to make time making breakfast, and you actually save money because you didn’t have breakfast. In that challenge, I teach you, or in the book, I teach you three different hacks to make it so the first time you fast you won’t be hungry and you still get the benefits of fasting.
That’s a major thing to do, and also to face the fear that all animals have starving to death. It’s not a conscious fear. It’s an unconscious fear, and where that sits in the hierarchy of your body. There’s our first two, sleep and intermittent fasting. The third one, we go in a couple different directions. You said for someone who’s having brain fog or energy, it was a brain fog or getting tired all the time?
Ari: Fatigue. Brain fog overlaps with people with chronic fatigue a lot.
Dave: Man, having lived that chronic fatigue thing, it’s really rough. For chronic fatigue specifically, I was going to go into cold therapy, we’ve been recommending that for 10 years ,some new research that humans talking about mirrors. Almost exactly the recommendations that we just arrived at as a community from early studies. Susan Soderbergh has done great work on that. I could talk about cold therapy. People who are really tired all the time, they probably will benefit from cold therapy unless they’re really blown out from an adrenal perspective, then they’re too tired, cold therapy’s too much of a stress.
They should start with just getting their face cold instead of their whole body. There’s protocols for that that I’m not going to get into because I think it’s too specialized. The next one, so then if we’re not going to do, that would also be high-intensity interval training. Except, if you have really serious chronic fatigue, you’re just exhausted all the time, you know what exercise does? It makes you tired. That’s what it’s supposed to do. There have been times when I’m like, “I’m not getting enough sleep. I’m a wreck on the edge of some respiratory thing. I’m working really hard. I just flew. Yes, I know I should go exercise, but I just feel like crap.”
It makes me feel worse when I exercise, not better. What I’m going to suggest for people who are that blown out is you actually focus on recovery and sleep, and nutrition. My final thing, if you have someone who’s really got cognitive dysfunction and fatigue, is going to be have coffee in the morning only. Add butter, add MCT oil and blend it. I’ve had multiple people over the years go off of ADD medications. This is a major energy enhancer. It changes the way your body metabolizes caffeine. I discovered this recipe after I went to Tibet and I had yak butter tea at 18,000 feet elevation.
I was still dealing with the lingering effects of chronic fatigue. I drank blended tea and butter, and I felt amazing when there was no oxygen in the air, and it didn’t make any sense. I came back to Silicon Valley and I tried 1000 different recipes and figured out the mold free coffee and the MCT oil. The idea of blending it, I funded research at the University of Washington that proved that droplets of butter and MCT oil in water and probably coffee, because coffee is mostly water, it changes the structure of the water so that your body can immediately use that water inside of cells.
When you or I drink water, all right, just a cup of water, your body has to distribute the water throughout the cells, hold the water near the cell membranes which are made of fat and heat the water with 1200 nanometer infrared light, that’s body heat. [chuckles] After a little while, the water transforms its viscosity, how runny or thick it is, so that then we can use the water to make energy. When you blend even just a tiny bit of fat in the water for 20 seconds or in coffee, the water in that you can use it when you drink it.
Now you’re getting water that’s immediately usable to make ATP and you’re getting instant energy from the MCT, which gives you keto energy, which is good for you, and you get a bunch of other benefits. That fixes so many people. If not, hit the smart drugs. You want it to perform well right now? There are things that are grey market pharmaceuticals like aniracetam, there’s the limitless drug I talked about earlier, modafinil. You know what? Your job is to feel really good right now. What most people do is they suffer for two or three years when they’re recovering.
You don’t have to suffer, you can feel good tomorrow while you recover your adrenals. That’s what I teach a lot of people on my podcast, like, “Here’s all the techniques and things you need to know.” You have a right to feel good tomorrow. If you’re not feeling good, change what you’re doing, you can recover and feel good. My company, Upgrade Labs, where I’m putting most of my time right now, we’re franchising across the country with facilities that have all the tech that let you recover faster than mother nature intended.
If you wanted muscles or cardio, or brain upgrades, we’ve got those in very small amounts of time because frankly, lifting weights, picking up rocks, is what we’ve done throughout all of human history, or running away from tigers, or chasing deer. Those are the only two kinds of exercise we can do better with tech. I’m using AI to guide your body to put on more muscle, or to fix your cardiovascular system in way less time so you can spend the extra time fixing your brain. You can go that deep if you want to, but seriously, use something that is from a plant or pharmaceutical company that will make you feel like yourself right now.
Ari: Dave, do you have to run right this second or can I ask you one more?
Dave: I’m good.
Ari: Okay.
Dave: We’ve got time.
Ari: I have a super quick question, and then one more that might take you a minute.
Dave: Do we have 10 more– 10 minutes should be good.
Bulletproof coffee and LDL Cholesterol
Ari: The quick question is on Bulletproof, there is a segment of people, and I know some cardiologists that are friends of mine that have commented on this in the past, that certain people just respond to consumption of dairy fat, and their LDL just skyrockets. There’s a segment of people that maybe are just genetically susceptible to that. Do you have any insight into that? Because I know that certain cardiologists, friends of mine have commented specifically on seeing people who have switched to Bulletproof where that happens. Obviously it doesn’t happen with everybody. Any comments on the minority of people that does happen to?
Dave: There’s a class of people who have something called familial hypercholesterolemia. In their family, they always have very high cholesterol. A dear friend of mine is one of those, who has consulted with the top cardiologists around the country around this exact question. We’ve had some really good off-the-record conversations about it. I’ve dug into that a lot. At the end of the day, the most trustworthy of all of the different advisors said, “You know what, we don’t have any evidence that this is actually harmful to you. It may actually be an adaptive response.”
You actually see that much more in Ashkenazi Jewish people, believe it or not. There’s a lot of unusual genetic variations in that population. Also, some genetic variations that gives them the highest average IQ of any racial group on the planet, which is pretty cool. At least in these cases where people have this, if they’re not all dying of these issues, then what’s going on? What I recommend people do is focus on triglycerides. There’s a ratio of HDL to triglycerides. HDL is the so-called good protective cholesterol. When people go Bulletproof, the vast majority of people, they raise their HDL to levels that are like, “Wow, that’s so good.”
Their triglycerides drop through the floor. That combination is more cardioprotective than worrying about straight LDL. When people are in these advanced things, there are a group of cardiologists who look at the size of the particles, and different people do different things, some particle sizes are worse than others. The two numbers, well three numbers that I really, really pay attention to are Lp-PLA2. This is an enzyme that gets released when there’s damage to the lining of your arteries. If your high LDL is damaging you, this number must go up.
If Lp-PLA2 is not elevated, then the cholesterol, funny enough, is correlated with living longer, higher LDL. People who live very long, have higher LDL levels, and LDL helps you excrete toxins out of the body. It’s not necessarily bad. You would look at oxidized LDL, ox-LDL, because that is dangerous. This is LDL that is creating free radicals because it’s been damaged. You don’t want that. That comes from eating highly oxidized cholesterol, which you don’t want to do, and I recommend not doing in the diet. Then you can look at the other markers of inflammation like homocysteine and C-reactive protein.
Most people who go “Bulletproof” on the diet or any of the recommendations from Fast This Way, will find that all of those markers improve. If they don’t, there’s a genetic reason homocysteine is around your ability to process B vitamins and methyl groups. Then you fix that. If C-reactive protein is high, you have a chronic infection or some other injury that’s causing persistent things. You have to get these numbers down if you want to live a long time and feel good. What I have to say is to the cardiologist, and I very much respect what cardiologists do. I know LDL was easy to measure because we could see it 50 years ago.
The fact we have a ton of studies doesn’t mean that’s the thing you should look at. Look at what we know today and take the old stuff with a grain of salt, because you can track the movement of stars and correlate them with everything, because that’s all you can track, but it turns out looking at your genetics might be more accurate and more actionable even if maybe there was data from the movement of the stars. We’re getting to that point with medicine. In cardiology you show me that Lp-PLA2, show me homocysteine, show me CRP, and if the LDL is at 300 in the patient, explain where the damage is happening.
If there is damage, it’s calcification, so Let’s look at our K2 and D3 levels, shall we? Eventually we’ll do that. There’s also people who have an ApoE3 and 4 variation in their genetics in that population. I’ve written about this years ago on the Dave Asprey blog. It turns out that you may want to put more oleic acid in the diet. In other words, you use a greater portion of olive oil, but all of us, and this is also core to the Bulletproof diet when I first wrote it, minimize your consumption of seed oils, the omega six oils. If you eat them, they need to be raw and not cooked. Soybean oil, corn oil, canola oil are super bad for you.
In that population, you can have olive oil, but it needs to be high-quality olive oil that hasn’t been fried. Doing that tends to help. Some people, to be really clear, you can suppress hunger on a zero-fat high-starch, probably pro-cancer diet like the Pritikin diet, which I just cannot recommend. A lot of cardiologists are saying there’s some evidence of reversal of heart disease from this insane, low-fat diet. However, the depletion that creates in the body is so high, that it just doesn’t work for large populations, especially for people who want to feel good.
Ari: I will say on a personal note, what you said is very interesting, because I’m actually one of those people that when I eat a lot of saturated fat, particularly dairy fat, my LDL goes up pretty dramatically. I’m also 57% Ashkenazi. I actually didn’t know that link though.
Dave: Wow, I did not know that you were any Ashkenazi. There’s a definite correlation there. Not all Ashkenazi heritage people are going to have that. Remember, LDL cholesterol is protective of toxins. It helps to escort toxins out of the body. Now I’m going to go on a limb a little bit here, but if there’s any population that has had pressure on it, there’s actually a great book, a little red book about why Ashkenazi Jews, but I’m not Jewish. Why Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ on the planet. It has to do with pressure on the population from being hunted for a 1,000-plus years, just to be really blunt about it.
That meant that the people who survived these really unfortunate times with famine and other bad things happening where the ones who could handle toxins the best, who could handle famine the best, who had the most amazing immune systems. When only a few people are going to make it out of a place, it was the strongest ones. You do that for generation after generation, which is horrible, but what you end up with is, “Why is there high cholesterol? Is it protective?” I know I’m probably angering some cardiologists out there, and I apologize guys, but you’ve got to look at that.
Show me Lp-PLA2. Show me what’s happening, because if you tell me high cholesterol is dangerous, that is not what the data shows. You have to at least talk about particle counts. The guy I’m talking about in particular was on a low-fat diet, and was dealing with what he describes crippling exhaustion his entire life. At least since he was 17, and he went on cholesterol lowering drugs. When he went on the Bulletproof diet, he got his energy back for the first time in his adult life, and was just like, “I can’t believe this,” but very much struggled. If I eat dairy fat, my cholesterol goes up. I don’t think it matters that much as long as your triglycerides don’t go u, and as long as your oxidized LDL doesn’t go up. It’s like show me the damage. I don’t know where it’s going to be.
How Dave starts his day
Ari: Last question. What does the first hour of your day look like? What does your morning ritual look like? Then we’ll wrap up.
Dave: I leave my phone on airplane mode when I wake up until I drop one of my kids off at school usually. I will look at my phone though, because I wake up and I look at my Oura ring score to see, “How did I do last night?” On a normal night I sleep almost exactly six and a half hours with about two hours of deep sleep and an hour, and a half of dream sleep, which is more than most college students get in eight hours. My sleep hygiene is pretty good at this point, unless I did something wrong, and then I know what I did, and it was my fault and I earned it. That’s what I do.
Then I wake up, I do make a cup of coffee. Sometimes I do it black. I’m obviously using my new coffee beans from mymysterycoffee.com. I’ll be unveiling the name shortly. Sometimes I put MCT and butter and prebiotics, and sometimes I don’t, just depending on my day, how I feel, what I want to do. I take a handful of supplements, mostly cognitive enhancers and empty stomach things like amino acids that work well. Then I will usually do some sort of 10, 15-minute visualization from a variety of different places or just my own stuff. Then I go about my day. It’s usually family stuff.
After the kids are dropped off at school, I do a set of things from Upgrade Labs, whether it’s light therapy or one of the other ones I’m testing out. I have a bunch of biohacks. All of them are way more effective than exercise ever will be, and that’s my goal. Sometimes neurofeedback from 40 Years of Zen, my neuroscience company. I’ll do one of those hacks, and then I go about my day.
Ari: Awesome. Dave, I would love to hang out with you for lots more and find out all the details of the 30-plus supplements that you take every day, and lots more about your routines and stuff. We both have to run. Let people know where they can follow your work. You obviously mentioned My Mystery Coffee and Sleep with Dave. Anywhere else you want to direct to people too?
Dave: Yes. Just go to daveasbury.com. That is where there’s 3,000 articles, almost 1,000 hours of video. There you can sign up for my upgrade collective where I’ll just teach you all the stuff. I have a course for every book I’ve ever done, a structured course, that’s 5, 10 minutes a week. You can absorb it without having to read the book if you don’t want to.
I just want people to know the stuff because it’ll save you tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills and pain throughout your life, and you’ll feel better all the time. When people feel better, they’re nicer to each other, and they’re harder to program by fear in the media. I want an unprogrammable, kind group of people around me. I’m working to create that, and so you are. Thank you.
Ari: Yes. Thank you, Dave. I really appreciate the work you’re doing, particularly in the last couple years. Thank you. All right.
Show Notes
What is biohacking (01:35)
Modern or ancestral lifestyle, which one is best? (09:20)
Nutrition for biohacking (17:20)
Bulletproof coffee and more (23:00)
Vegans vs. Carnivore (29:00)
Biotracking yay or nay? (32:35)
The story behind 10,000 steps a day (36:50)
The importance of critical thinking (37:42)
The best bio hacks for combating fatigue (39:00)
Bulletproof coffee and LDL Cholesterol (50:21)
How Dave starts his day (58:40)
Links
Check out the news on Dave’s latest coffee adventure
Learn more on how to optimize your sleep here
Recommended Podcasts
